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Why do Ubers Pokemon tend to favor Thunder over Thunderbolt while in lower tiers Thunderbolt is favored?

1 vote
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Xerneas's smogon set

Xerneas @ Power Herb  
Ability: Fairy Aura  
EVs: 168 Def / 252 SpA / 88 Spe  
Modest Nature  
- Moonblast  
- Geomancy  
- Substitute  
- Thunder

Thunderous-Therian's smogon set

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots  
Ability: Volt Absorb  
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe  
Timid Nature  
- Nasty Plot  
- Thunderbolt  
- Psychic  
- Focus Blast

Why?

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edited by
Yay this is for me.
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Kyogre probably has some part to play since its rain allows mons to actually aim their thunders
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Yep. Thunder is gonna hit Ogre and Ho-Oh harder than Bolt.
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Plus the sets haven't been updated since Dynamax ban meaning Thunder is also partly for higher Dynamaxed BP with infinite accuracy.
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Main reason is because Smogoners r idiots
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3 Answers

4 votes
 
Best answer

Because of Thunder's higher power.

In Ubers, half the Pokémon have 100+ HP and Defenses, and Thunderbolt without STAB in Ubers is like hitting a Chansey with Earth Power, ain't gonna hit so hard.
Thunder trades accuracy for the extra power, and in Ubers, sorry mate, but you would have to take the nice risk.
Thunder turns some 2HKO's by Thunderbolt to OHKO's, 3HKO's to 2HKO's, and so on.

A few calcs:

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 352-416 (103.2 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While,

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And,

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 452-534 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While,

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 372-438 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are a lot more calcs like this, this just showcases that in Ubers, need for higher power is req.

So yep, you have to take the risk if you wanna win.

(btw take this answer as NDAG...)

This is for yours and swastiks answers btw since they both have calcs :P
While thunder may work effectively to take ohkos or abuse kyogre rain, what about lower tiers? Take my boy thundurus for example
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesnt ohko
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Does ohko
Sure this is niche and Primarina would be switching into other attacks becausw of its good typing, and also rain isnt too common, but still. Id expect thunder to be on at least one other smogon set, but it Doesnt appear to be(besides galvantula, who has compound eyes so it Doesnt really count)
Ik this is hard to answers but can anyone find a more specific reason not for its ubers use, but its non rain team low tier no use?
If not thats fine but :P

I guess you want to know why Thunder ain't used, and they recommend TBolt.
The main reason for this is, that Thunderbolt is gonna nail all the foes in lower tiers, with a nice amount of them having only 85+ Defenses, and Thunder's low accuracy is too much to gamble with. If it misses, ggswp, if it doesn't still ggswp, but on Thunderbolt, let's take Primarina for example, after Rocks damage, it has a nice chance to KO (252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). Thunderbolt's nice BP of 90 is nice for low tiers (Oh I used nice two times).
Another thing is, Thundurus gets STAB from TBolt, whereas things like Xern don't get the STAB factor on Bolt.

From a The Smog Article, I'll quote:

Thunderbolt, in general, is a good move. In OU and below, Thunderbolt suffices as a good coverage move. However, in Ubers, where most Pokémon have 100/100 in their specially defensive stats, without STAB, even super effective Thunderbolts are tickling common Ubers. For example, Choice Scarf Genesect only does 36.14% - 43.07% to max HP Kyogre with Thunderbolt, which is only a 3HKO. Now, I know that people hate Thunder and its accuracy, but in Ubers, you NEED that power, and that 70% accuracy is just something you're going to have to accept and take a gamble on. Even then, it's not always a gamble, since with Kyogre in Ubers being like Rafael Nadal on clay courts, Thunder is the best choice overall.

I did note that there were a couple of exceptions to this rule. Basically, just like Ice Beam, anything with STAB on Thunderbolt are perfectly fine to use the move, since they have enough power on it. This would include the Thundurus formes, Electric Arceus, and to a certain extent, Magnezone. Another Pokémon that can also be accepted to use Thunderbolt is Fire Arceus. Even in Fire Arceus's case, it is a huge toss up between Thunderbolt and Thunder. It uses Thunderbolt because it requires the coverage in the sun to strike down Ho-Oh, although Thunder would allow it to defeat Kyogre more efficiently. In any case, it is generally accepted that Fire Arceus can use Thunderbolt because it is a designated sun sweeper. This does not mean you can extend this to say, Palkia in a sun team, because Palkia's main purpose is to check Kyogre, which would bring rain along, making Thunder the ideal choice.

The Article was of Gen 5, but I guess the same rule would apply here also.

Source: Experience

Hope it helped!!

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selected by
Oh I did Primal sorry I had USUM Calc open....
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Nice answer and this proves you're total USUM player.
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xD I don't understand anything about no Mega lol
And thanks!!
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edited by
Ubers, not NDAG but this calculation apply to Ubers as well so Ig it's correct
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Is there a National Dex Ubers?
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No there's not, lol.
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Hmmm thats weird :p
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This is for yours and swastiks answers btw since they both have calcs :P
While thunder may work effectively to take ohkos or abuse kyogre rain, what about lower tiers? Take my boy thundurus for example
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesnt ohko
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Does ohko
Sure this is niche and Primarina would be switching into other attacks becausw of its good typing, and also rain isnt too common, but still. Id expect thunder to be on at least one other smogon set, but it Doesnt appear to be(besides galvantula, who has compound eyes so it Doesnt really count)
Ik this is hard to answers but can anyone find a more specific reason not for its ubers use, but its non rain team low tier no use?
If not thats fine but :P
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I added what I thought was impo, is it good or..?
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3 votes

Excellent answer by hoennseptile and Assault Destiny as always, but wanted to add which calculations are specifically turned from 2HKO to OHKO. Kyogre is never a worry because at +2 SpD can take Origin Pulse, but the main target is Ho-oh and Zacian-C.

  • +2 252 SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 376-444 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
  • +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 277-327 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(Thunderbolt)

  • +2 252 SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 406-478 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
  • +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 300-353 (92 - 108.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(Thunder)

Even though Dynamax was banned so was Zacian-C, the set and analysis has been previously made and not yet updated. Since Dynamaxed moves have maximum accuracy, the extra trade in power isn't questionable as well.
If you feel RNG hates you then you can go for Thunderbolt or have a Kyogre (it's a great wallbreaker so no worries in running both and of course no rain team).

Source: Xerneas' analysis and some EXP

This is for yours and swastiks answers btw since they both have calcs :P
While thunder may work effectively to take ohkos or abuse kyogre rain, what about lower tiers? Take my boy thundurus for example
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesnt ohko
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Does ohko
Sure this is niche and Primarina would be switching into other attacks becausw of its good typing, and also rain isnt too common, but still. Id expect thunder to be on at least one other smogon set, but it Doesnt appear to be(besides galvantula, who has compound eyes so it Doesnt really count)
Ik this is hard to answers but can anyone find a more specific reason not for its ubers use, but its non rain team low tier no use?
If not thats fine but :P
commented 1 hour ago by ☆SleepyDreepy☆

Taking it for UU. Primarina NEVER runs 0 HP / 0 SpD. The most common set for it is 248 HP / 0 SpD in UU.

  • 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 342-404 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Indeed, getting a good chance to OHKO seems tempting but its not worth the luck. Take a look at the bulkiest SpD Pokemon in UU:

/nds uu, spd desc:
Nihilego, Moltres-Galar, Tentacruel, Primarina, Slowking, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Wash, Chansey

  • Using Thunder over Thunderbolt to hit Nihilego harder or to make a 3HKO to 2HKO isn't going to work. Both require same number of hits:
  • 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 127-150 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • 252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunder vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 154-183 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

While it surely can 2HKO after Stealth Rocks damage, you had required a Sticky Web support since Nihilego is always faster.
Moltres-G gets OHKOed by a +2 Thunderbolt, meaning you don't need the higher damage of Thunder. Similarly, Tentacruel, Slowking, etc. are OHKOed by Thunderbolt. Thus, you don't need the higher damage output of Thunder since it doesn't turn any 2HKO/3HKO to OHKO unlike in Ubers.

So since Xerneas takes the benefit of higher damage turning 2HKOes of Thunderbolt to OHKO by Thunder. For which, Xerneas likes Thunder over Thunderbolt but in lower tiers Thunderbolt has enough power to get KOes as much as Thunder does.

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edited by
Nice one +1!!
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Vs prim was an example but :P
And ty to all
Destiny's has a smogon article so
So idk but i think you get what i mean
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2 votes

Because of high BSTs.
Ever seen ho-oh special defence? Or zygarde-c hp? Of course you have. Being an uber player I can answer this well(most probably)
Ubers is basically OUBl. The stat are balanced and very high or the Pokémon has something very different and powerful (dracovish, low stats but fishious rend). To crack such big s.def's thunder and other powerful moves are preferred which are inaccurate. I personally use such moves because they're basically necessary.
Source: experience
EDIT: why no blizzard Mewtwo exists----
Unnecessary. Ice beam can cover almost same, Eternatus isn't like ho-oh in s.def. Plus it's 99% outclassed by caly shadow.
Hope I helped!

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edited by
SNIPED
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Mewtwo no longer uses Focus Blast over Fire Blast or Ice Beam.
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That kinda makes sense,  but you dont see like blizzard mewtwo. Plus, even in lower tiers, focus miss is almost always preffered. And, if all stats are increaed by A relative amount, than theoretically, shouldnt thunderbolt still be used. What mean is although defenses increaed,  so do offensive stats.
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It's NOT about focus miss. Ok bad example. I'll edit it rn.
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