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We really need to reform the Expert System + Vote (Urgent.)

16 votes
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The Expert System needs fixed.

Alright. This is long overdue. I set up a little system here, I hope every Moderator and Editor can add a bit and vote Yay or Nay.
This system makes a vote, although you have the final say.

Ninja:

Fizz sums it up for me. Except i do think we should revise the current ones. I vote Yay.

&Psychic x:

Yay. Everything Ninja said and what DT said below is what I'd say.

DarkTyphlosion:

I'm actually NAY on this one. I think it's the wrong solution to the right problem. We could strip the point based system, but that doesn't solve the problem of people working toward higher ranks, especially when it's the more powerful ranks like Editor and moderator people are after (that are also much more vague)
Also: http://pokemondb.net/pokebase/meta/33862/decreasing-expert-population-idea

  • No matter what, Fritjof remains an expert.
  • I don't think it would be fair to current experts to strip them of their rank because of other people point grubbing of other users. I think a basic grandfather clause is in order.
  • I know it doesn't pertain to experts, but not nominating people to be moderators or editors, then having a mass spree of postings about it. It may not be point driven, but I feel this creates the same problem of creating new positions out of consensus rather than out of necessity or potential.
  • I don't think the current deal with experts is so bad now that it warrants a huge reform. I think there needs to be an objective way of selecting people if we decide to go down that path, eliminating biases and conflicts of interest and all. I believe part of the issue is that "hand picked" is extremely vague and not to mention biased in how to handle anything. Yes, I know that putting down a definition will just cause people to strive toward that, but being vague creates more problems in trying to solve one.
  • I think the current problem is the fact that we were just hit with a new generation of pokemon, which from past experience, drives up the number of users in the community, especially those new to the game and new to the site.
  • We currently have 11/24 active experts. (I went through and checked each person's general log-in activity before answering) and that's just people who have logged in, not necessarily people actually using their expert abilities, so it's likely lower than that.
  • Basically, if the answers are suffering in quality, I see it as an issue of quality, not necessarily drive for a rank. If the question are not suffering in quality from people trying to gain higher rankings, then I honestly don't see any problem. Basic game theory. As pokemaster said, it's just a title, and while some simply see it as a means to an end to try and become an editor or something, that's where I think the issue of a more clear pah comes into play.

ƒιzz:

My two cents is about due, so let's go.

I'm gonna go with Yay. 6,000 is incredibly easy to get these days. It took literally no time at all for Indigo to get it. I'm not saying that the current bunch of experts should lose their position; I just don't feel like 6,000 is big enough of an achievement to warrant editing powers any more. There are 20,000 users+ now - things need to change.

I'm going to say that we need to change the system so that you can no longer get Expert with points, but rather with the community's and a mod's approval. There are plenty of users deserving of editing powers who haven't reached 6,000 yet, and there are also some who get expert by just spamming answers and not really giving as much to the community as they could've (not going to name anyone). As Sam said earlier...

>People are too blinded at reaching the 6000 point goal that they forget the whole purpose of this site.

If we remove that, then the entire issue will be resolved. People will hopefully not complain about points as much, and spamming answers won't be the only thing you need to do to get expert.

I also propose making experts for each section as well. Lets say that user123 has over 10,000 points on PokeBase, but nothing on the other sections. He'd very deserving of expert on PokeBase, but not on the other sections. So it may be appropriate to have him as an expert where he is contributing to the site the most and not where he isn't as much. This isn't to say that user123 would misuse those powers; it just doesn't seem appropriate. He should earn them on each section. However this is just my opinion that some people may disagree with, which is completely fine.

I just feel like we don't need any more experts than the amount we have. We shouldn't really be giving out the ability to edit when we don't really need anybody else to do it. Basically my opinion is almost identical to Ninja's, so listen to him.

~-~WILL~-~:

I hadn't read anyone else's responses while writing this, as to not dilute my raw opinion.
Very, very NAY on this one.
To plant blame on users for breaking rules the website enforces isn't the fault of the user on the bottom line. They broke rules - sure - but we're the ones monitoring and enforcing the rules. If someone manipulates the system to get to an Expert status, that falls on our shoulders for letting it happen.
I don't see anything wrong with having more experts. I understand that there should be a low concentration of power distributed, but editing questions and answers and stuff isn't really "power"...you're just a proofreading buddy.
Plus, to collectively say that we don't need any more experts feels dirty to me. I don't want to be associated with talk like that - many Experts on the site got to where they were for helping people with their questions and contributing in their own way. To take that away from people and to make Expert an appointed position is pretty stuck-up for people volunteering their time to contribute to a database.
A lot of early users got their points in bulk by filling up the then-empty database, so it's not like this hasn't happened before. And honestly, I'm just not a fan of impeachment, sorry to say.

Blobyolo:

With so many users, points are now easier to get than ever. People have been getting Expert in less than 3 months. Expert once meant something but now it's just a title that plenty of people have including a user that trolled and was banned for months. People get point hungry and spam vote others to get to this meaningless rank. People have the idea Expert means something when really it doesn't and never did. It is just a sign that a user had answered a crap tonne of questions.

Hand pick experts (this may mean stripping expert from everyone and starting over).
Experts should be picked by mods and I guess editors can have some input.
Users who hit 6000 should keep the ability to edit on Pokebase to keep the questions at a decent standard.
Give Experts access to the approval section of the admin page. Currently editors are being overwhelmed especially due to stupid timezone issues. Give experts + the ability to temporarily lock users from talking on chat.

Yay:
Blobyolo
Mike
Ninja
Fizz
Nay:
DT
Will
Undecided:
Mew
Kyron

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1 Answer

11 votes

I realize this is not a final call and my opinion nor summary counts for much, but I have discussed this with DT and listened to the opinions of many current Experts as well as some Regular Users/Soon to be Experts. While this seems like a good move, I do not believe that, in retrospect, it will solve much.

A) What is the real problem?

Is it that we have too many Experts? Well if that's the problem then PM has already stated his opinion on this:

"As has been explained many times before (like here), "Expert" is
just a title and does nothing on the site (because anyone at 6000
points can already edit posts). Also, it doesn't matter if the "Expert
Population gets too high". There is no reason to limit it."

Pokemaster - Decreasing Expert Population Idea

"Later still and the software we use added the ability to allow
users with N points edit posts, which was set at 6000. That has
basically taken over from Expert status, which is why it's described
as a meaningless title. However we can't set Expert status based on
points."

Pokemaster - Expert Confusion and a few Questions

PM has clearly stated that Expert is simply a title that has no true meaning other than to illustrate the fact that you have achieved over 6000 points. People at 6000+ points can still edit as seen in Whatson's profile. So this isn't really an issue.

B) If that's not the problem than what is?

Answer spamming is a controversial issue, and one that I find abhorrent. We have JarJar, fondant, Indigo, Le Scraf and a few others who have posted a huge amount of answers and have gotten a lot of points really really fast. However, they are all good quality answers, with good spelling and grammar, with notable sources. So as DT asked me "What is the problem with answer spamming if the answers are good?"
I didn't have an answer for him. Sure, there's something annoying about not being able to answer anything because one of the "answer spammers" answered it, but that isn't really a problem. We are a Q&A site after all. So if there's no actual law or valid reason behind one person or one group of persons providing us with many good answers I think we should move on.

C) With the distinct possibility that the suggestion of hand picking experts gets accepted by Pokemaster, how do we define "hand-picked"?

I think this is truly the most problematic issue with this post. We propose going to "hand picked" but how do we remove bias from it? And what sort of guidelines do we institute? Well I wrote up something short that would give us an idea on guidelines for "hand picking" experts.

- Must be a user for a certain period of time, 6 to 9 months
- Must have activity on all sections of the DB
- Must be agreed upon by Pokemaster and three Moderators
- Have a relatively clean record
- Show respect for other users of the site
- Pass an online grammar test
- Have good site activity

To clarify:

  • Must be a user for a certain period of time, 6 to 9 months

This would ensure some dedication to the site, the time period I've listed is rough and can be worked on. 6-9 months also gives us a broad base on which to judge a person's activity as well as other qualities that I've listed out. It also allowed to to quote Madagascar 2, "No, 6 to 9 months" No? Oh... ok.

  • Must have activity on all sections of the DB

When a person receives editing status they receive it for all sections. Some activity would include some comments, a few suggestions, preferably some understanding of how to build teams in the RMT section. Basically what fondant has going on. Her main focus is Pokebase, but she also comments in the other section as well as the occasional answer or question.

  • Must be agreed upon by Pokemaster and three Moderators

Pokemaster for obvious reasons, but also three Moderators. This eliminates a lot of the potential bias that could be involved with just one or two mods. I didn't include Editors because there are enough Mods and including Editors brings in more potential for biased promotions. Not trying to offend you guys, just what I've thought of.

  • Have a relatively clean record

Relatively because we've all been new users and we all make the occasional mistake. As for why a potential Expert should have a clean record, well, that's obvious enough. Clean record would mean no bans, and less than 3 (serious) offences on chat.

  • Show respect for other users of the site

Again a fairly obvious one, respect people's opinions, don't start huge fights in chat, be respectful of a person's privacy, all of those things.

  • Pass an online grammar test

You won't get accepted if "u t@lk lik di$" If you fail the test then you can retake it again after one week. The grammar tests will be drafted up by us (DT has offered to do it) and there will be multiples to prevent memorization.

  • Have good site activity

This will be kept track of via your activity on Chat, and also your activity on the various site sections.
Activity:

  • Pokebase: 4000 points (This is simply to judge activity) or have 100+
    answers and 100+ serious comments pertaining to the question at hand

  • Battle Subway: 1 or 2 well written answers and 50+ serious comments

  • Meta: 50+ serious comments pertaining to site relevant issues
  • Chat: Hopefully you appear more than once a week, but seeing as the
    Chat is where you're likely to gain respect as a user I'd suggest
    going there.

This is all of course up for serious debate, and the final word rests with Pokemaster. Thank you for reading.

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Eeeeeh, if you need activity in the RMT I'm screwed. xD
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Did my comment get hidden? O_o
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I don't understand, what's the problem with having many experts?
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That's the million dollar question, Deku Tree!
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I don't think too many experts is the real core in this discussion. More the point hunger to become expert, and that's why people don't want expert to be all about points
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Nailed it ^.  That is pretty much the core of the debate.
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And so far no one has focused on it. Which annoys me.
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I may as well answer with that point later.
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@Jofly/Deku Tree: As stated in my post there isn't really a problem with it. In fact as dr_dude_of_bananas says it's more people feel that Expert has been lost amidst the points.
@Ninja: If you believe that the issue is the focusing on the points, then we can focus on it, and hand-picked does alleviate that issue to an extent, which is why I included the C) in my answer to give us all an idea of how it would solve the issue at hand.
@Mike: Thanks.
@Indigo: It's all debatable and what I wrote down is just a generic idea of what may be drafted in the final decision. Everything I've written up there is NOT FINAL. Just giving us all an idea of the situation and what we can do if the plan goes ahead.
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This was another thing, you weren't supposed to have a say Kijani... Also I believe Mike was referring to Dr Dude by the arrow.

And bias is fine when hand picking. No matter what, there will be bias. This related back to the respect factor.
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There may be bias, but that doesn't mean you should actively disregard any opportunity to eliminate it. Plenty of other people have talked, so I don't see why we should only listen to people with an arbitrary status we threw here on the site.

I'd rather my suggestions hold merit because they're potentially helpful to the site--not because I'm a moderator.
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More users means more experts nothing wrong with it.
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^ well, i guess that how it have to be
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I think Will's answer pretty much covered it. If people are point grubbing to become to Expert, how is it any different from when the Mods or other users catch point grubbers who aren't aiming for the Expert status itself? I know I don't much a lot of say in this debate, being a relatively new Expert who has been slightly inactive, but I'd like to point out that if people are spamming bad answers just to get points, they get a warning/ban. Simple as that. That's how it's always been, and I don't see why that needs to change. A user could just as easily spam answers to be considered to have "Good site activity" and "Activity on all sections of the site" enough to become an Expert.

Some people here seem to think the problem here is the Expert status being a tempting position of power(very little power, but power nonetheless). It's not. The problem is the people who come on the site for no reason other than to suck up to the Mods and gain power. How many people have asked to become Mods, on their first day? Should we change the Moderator system because of this? No, probably not.
We have enough Mods and Editors now, especially if Will regains his position, to catch the trolls/spammers/power-hungry-users and keep this from being a problem.

Understand that this was not meant as a rant or to completely disagree with anyone. Just throwing in my two cents.
Bottom line: I'm in agreement with Will.
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Agreed with slash. I think it's fine as is, but I also agree with this answer as a guideline for manually selecting new people to gain editing abilities as opposed to just waiting things out and giving them points, so it's not a very frequent situation.
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"Pokemaster + three moderators".
I'd say two or four, because say we have this case:
Ninja: User 1 should be an expert. He really provides nice answers, with good grammar and sources.
Pokemaster: He is only here since three months, and this would seem unfair that a three-months user already gets expert.
Mike: I agree with Ninja, here. What is the problem if he is only here since three months ? As he provides quality answers and he is very active, I'd say we can move it to the expert rank.
DT: I don't think so. Pokemaster's right. This user is way too new for being an expert and has a small gap of points to cover in the RMT section.

Imagine this case (of course, not the exact one). It will end up for a two-yes, two-no, and to an endless debate. So a fifth person may give the final answer, or only three persons for the vote (Pokemaster + two other moderators.)
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Lol arca. That's Poke'slash. Not Pokemaster xD

I understand about getting PM involved, but we see him, what, once a fortnight? Half of that he just answers stuff. Im not sure how the process could work, but they'll be waiting awhile. I say 3 mods or 2 and PM.
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It would be a 3-5 vote. Has to be odd numbered.
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Well, I guess it's obvious now that you've pointed it out, but I'm sure whoever draws up the final draft will not be me and will think of that. Like I said what I wrote is a rough example of what we may potentially see. It is not anything final.
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I'll just finish my part in the debate with a quote and then say farewell to you all for today.
Gdi Slash, why does your name look so much like PM's? - Scizornician
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