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NatDex Ubers: Dragon/Flying Spam HO

I've been getting into National Dex Ubers recently, and the tier can be quite fun to play despite things like Smeargle Webs existing. and the ladder being so unserious. I wanted to use Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, so I decided to build this HO team with both of them on it. I found these two to work quite well with each other to overwhelm shared checks so one can clean late-game. This team is built around the offensive core of Mega Salamence + Rayquaza. The team has performed decently, though there are some concerns that I have with this team. Here is the Team Pokepaste if you want to try this team out.


Deoxys-S


Deoxys-Speed @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
- Spikes

The lead of this team. I decided to go with Deoxy-S due to it being the fastest HO lead. The moves are standard, but the item I have isn't. After being fed up with Smeargle's Nuzzle, I decided to go with Covert Cloak just so it won't paralyze me, and it works surprisingly well, especially with Tera Steel and Taunt to shut down Smeargle completely. Part of me wants to slot in an attacking move like Psycho Boost over Spikes just so I can actually damage Smeargle without having to switch out. Should I do that, or should I stick to switching out to damage Smeargle if the Smeargle user decides to stay in instead of switching out?


Mega Salamence


Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Roost

One of the two Pokemon I built this team around. Pretty simple sweeper set, with Earthquake targeting Steel-types such as Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Zacian-C, as well as hitting Pokemon such as Eternatus and Primal-Groudon since I don't have Double Edge as the STAB move on this Mega Salamence set. I went with Frustration over Return on this set so I can deny Ditto (that aren't 0 happiness) joy and happiness should it try to come in and copy Mega Salamence. I find that the loss of power from Double Edge isn't that bad since Mega Salamence also has Rayquaza to overwhelm shared checks for it.


Rayquaza


Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- Extreme Speed
- V-create

The second Pokemon I built this team around. Mega Salamence + Rayquaza form a really nice offensive core together, being able to overwhelm shared checks so one of the Dragon/Flying-types can sweep late-game, with the other one opening up holes in the opposing team early-game. With Dragon Dance, Rayquaza becomes a threat due to its coverage. Dragon Ascent paired with Tera Flying is a nice way to deal Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Eternatus, and even 2HKOing Dondozo. V-Create being able to get rid of Steel-types such as Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Zacian-C is really nice, as well as being able to hit Tera Steel Giratina-O, a Pokemon that checks Mega Salamence quite well.


Primal Groudon


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 140 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Heat Crash

With Mega Salamence and Rayquaza's huge allergy to ice moves, as well as their weakness to Fairy moves, I decided to add dual dance Primal Groudon to the team. Primal Groudon is nice as a check to Pokemon such as Zacian-C, Eternatus, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and even Primal Kyogre to an extent. In turn, Mega Salamence and Rayquaza can switch in on an incoming Ground move in a pinch. Dual Dance Primal Groudon does nice at sweeping teams or opening up holes for something else to sweep. I went with Heat Crash over Stone Edge since I wanted an accurate STAB move, and I feel like Mega Salamence + Rayquaza already do a good job at overwhelming Ho-Oh. Plus, having Heat Crash is nice to hit Giratina-O should it Tera Steel to check Mega Salamence. The EVs is the standard dual dance spread, with the Speed EVs giving Primal Groudon enough speed to outspeed Choice Scarf Yveltal after using Rock Polish.


Yveltal


Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt

I decided to add Yveltal as an offensive check to Pokemon such as Necrozma-DM and Marshadow. Yveltal is also nice for dealing with Giratino-O and Lunal pre-tera. I went for Sucker Punch over Knock Off to allow Yveltal to pick off faster Pokemon such as Marshadow and boosted Ultra Necrozma/Necrozma-DM. Taunt is nice to be able to stop setup sweepers from setting up, and is useful to stop Defoggers like Ho-Oh and Giratina-O from removing hazards set by Deoxy-S.


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 40 HP / 248 Atk / 80 Def / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

For the last slot, I decided to go with Necrozma-DM as an ice resist pre ultra burst as well as a Zacian-C check. Dragon Dance Ultra Necrozma is scary sweeper that can clean through teams or weaken them for a teammate to sweep. Earthquake targets Pokemon such as Zacian-C, Primal-Groudon, and Necrozma-DM. I decided to go for Stone Edge to immediately threaten Ho-Oh, though I'm wondering if I'm able to use another move over Stone Edge. The EV spread used lets Necrozma-DM outspeed Chi-Yu after Ultra bursting as well as Scarf Yveltal after getting off a Dragon Dance (after Ultra Bursting). The physical bulk investment allows Ultra Necrozma to survive a Banded Marshadow's Shadow Sneak provided you have enough HP and have a decent chance of surviving a +2 Arceus' Extreme Speed from full. The special bulk lets Necrozma-DM survive an unboosted Fire Blast from Eternatus.


Problems/Concerns

  • I find Arceus-Dark (or Darkeus) to be problematic, especially if its the defensive set with Foul Play, as this team is basically physical overload, and if it has Taunt, Rayquaza and Primal Groudon won't be able to setup.
  • On the topic of physical overload, Coil Zygarde is also a problem, as I don't have any other special wallbreakers other than Yveltal. Any changes I can make to make this not a problem.
  • Ice moves are also a problem, since half of my team (4 once Necrozma-DM ultra bursts) are weak to ice moves. Are there some changes I can make to the team to make this not as big of a problem?
  • None of my Pokemon aren't as fast without boosting. Should I change the Yveltal and/or Necrozma-DM slots to address this issue?
  • I'm considering adding Zacian-C over Necrozma-DM so I can have a fast Pokemon that naturally outspeeds Pokemon such as Marshadow and Eternatus, using this set:

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Tera Blast
- Wild Charge

Should I make this change? If so why? If not, should I use another Pokemon or is Necrozma-DM fine?


And that's all for now. Looking forward to making improvements to this team, as I have fun using it. Thanks for reading!

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1 Answer

1 vote
 
Best answer

Time to rate a team.

Finally, Natdex Ubers, a metagame I know.

Let's start off with a general overview of the team. As you helpfully noted, you have a lot of physical attackers, and a big Ice weakness. These are also problems that my team had for a while. (and the problem persists somewhat.) I've found that many physical attackers isn't a huge problem, you just need to focus on a way to deal with Will-O-Wisp users (Read: Giratina and Arceus) and Physical Walls. (Arceus, Dondozo, and Groudon-P)

The Ice weakness isn't a huge problem, the most common Ice-type attackers are Kyurem White and Black and Mega Mewtwo Y. Chien-pao and Baxcalibur are rare, and Calyrex-Ice needs Trick Room to do anything. Iron Bundel is a threat, but it's power is kind of bad without the super effective multiplier, Groudon-P should work well against many of the good Ice users, and Necrozma-DM can do well if you don't Ultra Burst.

Now let's get to the actual team itself: (Although there probably won't be much to say. It looks pretty good.)


Deoxys-S

Psycho Boost over Spikes is the only change I would make. Looks fine.


Salamence-Mega

The set looks fine. Something you can try is using Moxie as the base ability, because it allows you to finish a slower target off with base form Salamence, and get +1 Attack before Mega Evolving. Intimidate works well too though. You may want Double Edge over Frustration, because...


Rayquaza

This set needed an Ice weakness removed, and removing a physical attacker would be good as well. I know Raquaza is part of the core, but I think he should be cut. Mega Salamence is a little better, and two 4x Ice weaknesses don't go well together. Groudon-P can still do a great job checking threats to Salamence. A Special attacker would be good to slot in here instead. Here are some options:

Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Freeze-Dry
- Fusion Flare
- Ice Beam

Here is the White Kyurem set that I use. It acts as speed control (Outspeeds All unboosted but Regieleki, Deoxys-S and Ninjask) It can OHKO Zacian Crowned with Tera Fire Fusion Flare (252 SpA Tera Fire Kyurem-White Fusion Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 356-420 (109.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

This thing destroys most dragons in the Uber Tier.

Koriadon, (252 SpA Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 360-426 (105.5 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

And Eternatus (252 SpA Kyurem-White Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 542-638 (128.7 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

Even the bulkiest Coil Zygarde is no longer a problem: (252 SpA Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 540-636 (128.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO) (Technically, Zygarde survives with max HP, SpD and an Assault Vest, but who on earth uses Assault Vest Zygarde?)

You could also use Kyogre, Primal or Scarf. Specs or Life Orb Mewtwo works well too.


Groudon-Primal

Looks fine. Stone Edge is usually a better choice than Heat Crash, but on this team, it works. Try to keep Groudon alive, as he's a VERY important part of this team.


Yveltal

Also looks fine. Heat Wave?


Necrozma-DM

I use Sunsteel Strike over Stone Edge, to deal with Faries, and it gets STAB in Duck Mane Form. If you want to use Zacian over this guy, you could. I recommend testing the team with Zacian, and without.


So far, I have addressed everything on your list of concerns, except for Arceus-Dark, who is a real pain. Yveltal can win a 1v1 with it, but most players won't let you Oblivion Wing them to death. The White Kyurem set I gave does well too.

Mewtwo OHKOs with Aura Sphere after a Nasty Plot: (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 442-520 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO)

So does Scarf Kyogre: (252 SpA Tera Water Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark in Rain: 468-552 (105.6 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO)


With a team that's already so good, this is the best advice I can give you. Hope I helped. Have fun, and beware the webs Smeargle. (Possibly the most annoying type of team in Ubers.)

by
selected ago by
Hey! Was going to comment my thoughts on some of the things in the answer but never got around to doing so lol, so here are some of my thoughts regarding this answer:

Not sure how I feel about using Kyurem-White (it's not even good in NatDex Ubers xd)... Also, why did you mention Regieleki and Ninjask? Both aren't good in NatDex ubers. Also, Koraidon is banned from NatDex Ubers, so I don't have to worry about that it lol. Also, how much damage does Kyurem-White do to Zygarde if it Teras?

"You could also use Kyogre, Primal or Scarf. Specs or Life Orb Mewtwo works well too."

Regular Kyogre isn't good because of not only Primal Kyogre is just better, but Primal Groudon is like the best Pokemon in NatDex Ubers so... yeah. I do like the Primal Kyogre and Life Orb Mewtwo suggestions, but my problem with it is that the sets I have in mind to use for them are best on Sticky Web teams, which this team isn't. Might still try out Mewtwo because of the Tera Blast Fairy set. I do agree that Rayquaza probably needs to be removed from the team tbh, just need to figure out which Pokemon I would like to replace it. Part of me is considering Eternatus so I at least still have a Dragon spam core, though I'll need to experiment with the slot.

Regarding Yveltal not having Heat Wave on this team, it's because Taunt is to stop Defoggers from removing the hazards set by Deoxys-S. However, I might end up experimenting with replacing Yveltal since I have Mega Salamence on the team since Mega Salamence apparently can replace Yveltal's spot on Hazard stack HO.

Overall, I feel like while changes to my team would be good, it would end up making it a different team than what I originally had in mind with the double Dragon/Flying core, though I don't mind changing around the team since the team was made a bit over a year ago lol, so I'll have to change things around to make it feel better in the current meta. (Including going back to Rocky Helmet on Deo-S and just accept Nuzzle paralyzing Deoxys-S)
Sounds good. Basically every answer on RMT is a suggestion, it's always fine (And often necessary) to tweak the "new" team to your battle style and preferences.

A bit more of an explanation of why I suggested what I did:

Kyurem-W is great in Natdex Ubers, very underrated mon. Mid speed + Amazing SpA make it an ideal Scarfer. I've used one on my main team for almost the entire time I've played that metagame, and it has helped me out very much, from Suprise OHKOing Zacian-C, to OHKOing and outspeeding every unboosted Dragon Type. It also really helps against Stored Power Necrozma-DM, which I find really annoying if you don't have a Dark Type.

 I mentioned Regieleki and Ninjask to show that Scarf Kyurem-W outspeeds literally everything but the 3 fastest Pokemon in the game. You are never going to see a Ninjask in Natdex Ubers, however, I have seen Ice Tera Blast Regieleki in Natdex Ubers rarely. (Mostly as a speed control)

Coil Zygarde is the only common Zygarde set that doesn't use Tera Ground for extra power, so here's the calc:

252 SpA Kyurem-White Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Zygarde: 290-344 (69 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and even if Zygarde already has a Coil boost, Kyurem lives it easily:

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-White: 159-187 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Also, I was unaware that Koriadon was Banned. That explains why I haven't seen many recently...

The only good set for regular Kyogre is Scarf Water Spout, which is completely outclassed by Primal Kyogre, if you have a webs team, which you don't. The main reason why I suggested Scarf Kyogre was because it can OHKO Arceus-Dark, which says a lot about how powerful it is against something that doesn't resist Water. After Water resists are cleared out, Scarf Kyogre can sweep teams.
 
Overall, just adjust the team to what you think fits best. Whatever you do, it will probably be different than what you originally had, because the biggest weakness of a Double Dragon Flying core, is that you have two 4x Ice weaknesses, and Cores where both Pokémon have the exact same typing aren't great.

Have fun experimenting. Hope I helped.
Couple more questions before I decide to BA the answer:

What part of ladder are you on where you're running into Stored Power Necrozma Dusk Mane? Stored Power isn't a real set on it.

Out of curiosity, are you aware of the ranking Kyurem-White is on the NatDex Ubers VR? Kyurem-White is D rank on the NatDex Ubers VR, meaning it is among the Pokemon that are NatDex Ubers by tiering and are unviable in the tier. Do you use Kyurem-White against bad low ladder teams often?

Also, I calced with the OHKOs you mentioned with Kyurem-White vs Zacian and Scarf Kyogre vs Arceus-Dark, and both of those require you to commit Tera in order to pull those off. (The Zacian one assumes the player doesn't decide to say "I want to Tera my Zacian!") The Kyogre calc is dicier if its CM Arceus-Dark since with Tera Water at full HP, it's a 50% chance to OHKO, but regular Kyogre isn't good in NatDex Ubers so...
At about 1500ish elo is where I see this Necrozma Duck Mane set: (at least, this is my best guess as to what it looks like)

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy  
Ability: Prism Armor  
Tera Type: Water  
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD  
Calm Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Stored Power  
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind  
- Morning Sun

No, I haven't looked at the Natdex Ubers VR recently, but ranking isn't everything. Just because a Pokémon is D rank doesn't mean you aren't allowed to use it and it will never be helpful. I've just found Kyurem-W to be very helpful, on the higher ladder. Maybe it fills a specific niche for my team, but it's still worth trying out. If everybody only used the top 6 Pokémon on the Tier List, none of the other possible viable Pokémon would get a chance to prove themselves.

There's no reason for Zacian-C to Tera against something it should outspeed and OHKO at base, and I think that getting rid of a Zacian-C, a major threat to most teams, is a good use of my Tera. Of course, if I decide no to use my Tera, removing 3/4 of Zacian-C's health and letting a revenge killer get the KO can work too.

If I use a Scarf Kyogre on my team, I usually save my Tera for it, because the extra STAB boost is usually required to get OHKOs on the bulkier Pokémon in the Ubers tier. As I said earlier, while a OHKO is nice, removing most of it's HP so anything else will kill can be helpful too.
If you don't Tera, both Water Spout and Origin Pulse 2HKO, and Arceus Dark only 3HKOs you.

Anyways, hope I helped.
Hmm ok. I ended up just making a copy of the team and making it a more standard DeoS HO with Mega Salamence as it was the mon I wanted to use when I originally made the team, so I may still mess with the original team a bit. Still not sold on Kyurem-White and Kyogre for a scarf mon however, as I feel like I can't exactly afford to have a Scarf mon on the HO team in NatDex Ubers if I don't have a good defensive core to fall back on if I mispredict with them xd