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Metagame Speculation Thread: New Pokemon of Gen VI? [closed]

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"For one week we can have a new Gen VI Pokemon discussion, then after that week is over I put up a topic on Mega Evolutions, then after that a topic on old Pokemon in general, then a final topic on weather. The time lapse between topics would be to center the discussion and make it more focused, rather than dividing all the people and their opinions."

I will post an answer for every Pokemon, in order of appearance in the Pokedex. Comment with your speculations about tier placement and roles in the metagame. This is not for movesets however, we have the moveset questions for that.

I will also have an answer to comment upon about what effect you believe the Fairy type will have on Gen VI.

Do not upvote this question or any of my answers please.

closed with the note: Well done for discovering this. Please don't bump it.
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closed by
Pokemaster, this is SCREAMING "we need a forum". JS. :)
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The forum was meant to come for the arrival of x and y but I guess its not happening anymore.

trachy can we do mega evos also? I've got a lot to say about them but not really the rest xD
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As I said above, I was planning on doing a Mega Evo thread next week (sooner if this thread dies before then). This way we don't have all of our competitive discussion split up and we can have more meaningful debates on the one subject.
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37 Answers

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How do you think Fairies will effect the Gen VI metagame?

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Show 7 previous comments
Well four fairies is all int'll take for Dragons to stop rampaging about like boys having their period.
I'm thinking of a Prankster Screen Setter for Klefki. And having duo steel typing will be nice imo, gives it a lot of resistances.

But Hydreigon and Haxorus will definitely drop. Crobat will rise. And MoxieMence will no longer have quite the amount of freedom it need to spam Outrage.
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Hydreigon probably won't drop. It has an amazing mixed movepool, and it has Flash Cannon. Haxorus, on the other hand, is already close to dropping, and the Fairy weakness will likely end its life in OU.
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Sixth gen uber is definetely gonna change from fifth gen...
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^ And my inquiry into whether the Pope is a Catholic has just produced results in the affirmative.
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My main problem with the Fairy type is that there aren't many I find worth using (well, besides the obviously Uber Xerneas.) Lots of the Fairy type Pokemon introduced are not good enough to hold their own in OU. Sylveon is probably the best of Gen VI Fairies, and while it is certainly a solid Pokemon, all it really has going for it is a Dragon immunity. Mega Mawile and Mega Gardevoir take up a spot that might be better used with another Mega, such as Tyranitar, Lucario, or Scizor. Togekiss and Azumarill are probably going to be the main Fairy types, but would those two be enough to create a serious decline in the use of Dragons? Especially when they have to face things like the aforementioned Mega Scizor and Mega Lucario, along with other oldies of Steel. It means Dragons can't use Outrage all willy nilly, but they Special Dragons shouldn't be hurt much by this.

In the lower tiers, Fairies shouldn't be making much of a difference since we don't see many Dragons. Then again, we also don't see many Steel types or Poison types, so they might find a place in UU, RU, or NU. I just don't think they will dominate the tier though.

I think Dragonite and Salamence have the moves they need to weather the storm. The other Dragons I see getting a decline in usage, although I only see Hydreigon and Kyurem dropping down to UU.
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As I mentioned on its moveset question, the typing leads it to have a number of useful resists, such as to Ground and Rock. However, it also leaves it with a multitude of weaknesses. That Flying type weakness is actually a pretty big thing in the lower tiers, where Flying type Pokemon that actually know offensive Flying type attacks (as opposed to just Fly and Hidden Power like say Landorus-T) are actually pretty big. NU has things like Braviary and Swellow who are pretty prominent Pokemon in the tier. While RU has a lot less Flying types, with Moltres the only one of any note, it still has a lot of Pokemon who will get a big Super Effective hit off on Chesnaught's Special side. Lots of Psychic types and Fire types.

I think Chesnaught will be NU, and won't have much of an impact on the metagame. It's use will be on teams that need to fill up holes in its resisances. Chesnaught isn't a terrible Pokemon, and shouldn't really hold teams back too much. I see it as having middling use in the NU tier.
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It doesn't have the speed of Virizion or the ability/ movepool of Breloom. Lacking things like Spore and a recovering Grass move just makes it really lacklustre when compared to the other two Grass/Fighting types.
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Lacking Spore isnt as big of a deal anymore thanks to Powder Moves not affecting grass types anymore and the fact that this thing has the chance to land in a tier above or with Goodra, who could be Sap Sipper bait.
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Further use of it and its Hidden ability has led me to think Chesnaught can actually make RU, as it can switch in on some pretty big things. Or it might just end up being Golurk, that NU Pokemon with solid stats and a typing that allows it to find a place in every metagame.
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Elaboration on my revised opinion:

This actually does have to do with that horrible serebii article (where they completely inflated how good Chesnaught actually is, while also taking a crap on Delphox. Which is completely unwarranted in my opinion, as if Delphox makes NU it will be a far more influential Pokemon in its tier than Chesnaught and Greninja will be in their tiers) because it actually showed me that Bulletproof provides immunity to more moves than I thought. I decided to take it for a spin, and those resists actually came in a lot of use. EdgeQuake resist is really helpful. It can pretty much handle Ghost types thanks to immunity to Shadow Ball, safe switch in on Special Poison types, and it can fairly easily handle slow Steel types. Still not good enough to see a lot of OU play, but I do revise my opinion and say it will make RU.
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Correction: UU
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Probably the most difficult Pokemon for me to speculate upon. In RU, it will have to face the consequences of having such a poor typing. Fire/Psychic isn't the greatest offensive typing (it is somewhat decent though) and it leaves you countered by the big bad Slowking. Bulky Psychic types such as Uxie would also cause a fair amount of problems for it. It's stats are not the greatest, being a bit better than Typhlosion's, but without the raw damage of Eruption. Delphox takes 25% from switching into Rocks, which is a downside when it will most likely be used in a Scarf or Specs role. This also hurts it when it comes to facing Spiritomb, whose Sucker Punch and Pursuit can easily cause Delphox huge problems, and prevent it from coming out for most of the match lest it be destroyed. It also has a weakness to Aqua Jet, giving the popular Kabutops a powerful weapon against it. So if it gets RU, it would probably be a terrible Pokemon who would almost never see use.

Much better for Delphox would be NU. There, it's stats would give it the ability to deal some good damage. It has a good Speed and Special Attack stat for NU, and the best comparison for it might be a faster Jynx without access to a Sleep move. I don't see it as the most dominant Psychic of the tier, but it should see a fair amount of use as an offensive Psychic you can use in place of Jynx to counter Jynx. It's one of the best Fire types in the tier, with its only competition being Charizard, who will likely move up a tier or two thanks to its Mega Evolution. It would be a very good NU Pokemon.

I am undecided as to whether I think it will go NU or RU. It straddles the tiers quite effectively.
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From what I've seen Greninja will make a great rain sweeper (depending on the dropage of rain teams due to nerf) or a great Spike lead. I truly think he'll be able to pull his own weight in OU. However as you yourself stated trachy, he seems to be gearing down for UU. I'm not sure what to call between those tiers.
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Probably the Pokemon with the biggest impact on the metagame... a (useable) Protean Pokemon. Kecleon has it, but it's discounted for having very mediocre stats. Protean is going to be hard to counter if Greninja is not choiced.
Greninja is frail, but it's there to sweep. Really nice speed so spec'd is a great option, diverse movepool and decent sp. atk. Greninja is going to be OU at least imo, or maybe Borderline.
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I don't see Greninja going OU. It struggles with Fairies, and with Florges and Sylveon around its moves will often be walled. Greninja appreciates its coverage so I don't see Choiced sets as a good option, which means Scarfers will often outpace it. UU seems fitting for Greninja; if it manages OU it probably won't get much usage. It doesn't hit hard enough.
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I see it being UU with some OU usage. As a Rain sweeper it is decent, but I have a feeling Rain will see a decline in usage due to the fact that all weather got the nerf, and Rain was the only weather that didn't get a Mega. But more about that in the week 4 topic.

I think the comparison to Infernape was rather apt, although the two are complete opposites when it comes to typing. However, as an offensive Pokemon it is worse than Infernape. Water/Dark is just not the best coverage. Protean is solid, especially when you're wanting to use STAB U-Turn. However, I don't think it's good enough to cause it to see enough usage to be OU. I don't see any player that is any good being all that confuzzled by Protean type changes.

I believe the best role for it is that of a Spiker. I believe it has the fastest non-Deoxys, non-priority Spikes in the game (correct me if I am wrong). This is obviously an incredibly useful tool for it, and it might be enough to push it into OU. I am doubtful however. I think we also have a better Spiker with Froslass, who has the ability to block Rapid Spin on her own Spikes.

Greninja is a good Pokemon, in my opinion the second best non 680 and non Mega to come out of Gen VI metagame after Aegislash. However, I don't think that it is good enough to be OU. I think it is safe to say though that everybody here has doubts about it being OU, and when one of the more useful Pokemon to come out is being questioned in that way, it really speaks to the strength of the new Pokemon (which leads me to believe they were intended as lower tier additions, with the Megas intended to be the strong points of the metagame).
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In terms of Froslass being able to spinblock with typing, you could run spikes + Shadow Sneak which spinblocks with Protean.
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I've been using it some more and I actually change my thoughts on this guy. I think it can make OU, and although I don't believe it will see much use in the tier, I think it will see a bit of play, especially on Hyper Offensive teams.
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0 votes
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NU. It has Huge Power, but otherwise it's stats are absolutely useless. It has no good priority to compensate for its bad Speed and a bad typing that hits barely anything super effectively. Outside of Hammer Arm, it's coverage isn't great either.

The only sets I see are Choice Band and Agility really, but either way Diggersby is going to have trouble going any higher than NU.
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It's faster than most Huge Powered Pokemon. That doesn't mean it isn't awful and slow and has a bad typing and poor defenses and a meh movepool and...

NU for sure. And more on the PU end of NU than on the useful end of things.
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Correction: BL
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Now: UUBL
Diggersby isn't necessarily a bad wallbreaker; in fact, it's actually quite difficult to switch into. Its main issue, however, is that it faces immense competition from other wallbreakers such as Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, and even Hoopa-U. Diggersby's below average Speed stat and subpar defensive typing leave it very vulnerable to common offensive threats such as Greninja, Kartana, and Kyurem-B. Its mediocre bulk is also problematic because anything it fails to OHKO will most likely deal a heavy amount of damage to it, so it will often be dead weight against offensive teams.
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0 votes
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I think at least UU (maybe BL2) because of Gale Wings? If it can pull off one swords dance, it can use Acrobatics continuously. Stealth Rock weakness hurts a lot, but with some good support it's pretty dangerous.
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Yeah, RU or UU. Gale Wings is amazing for it, and the speedy Taunt and Will-o-Wisp almost recreates Sabeye. But it hasn't got a good typing like Sableye, so if it get UU it'll be outclassed.

It has a mediocre Attack stat which can hold it back as well. Definitely a useable Pokemon, but it's typing and Defences really suck for it.
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I'd say RU just off of that huge Stealth Rock weakness, which limits the usefulness of Brave Bird and Flare Blitz.
I would've said NU, but that priority Brave Bird/Acrobatics is pretty huge, and it can make a great revenge killer. Just use it with Kabutops.
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Defog now removes entry hazards, which (I think) Talonflame has access to. Either that or it's gonna need Rapid Spin support. It certainly won't be OU with the crippling Stealth Rock weakness.

Edit: It doesn't look like Talonflame can learn Defog, that's a bit of a problem.
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edited by
Would it knowing Defog have mattered though? It already would have taken the 50% damage.
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Correction: OU
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rip(filler)
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Basically Butterfree. It'll be another Compoundeyes Powder Pokemon, or another Quiver Dance sweeper. Another double Stealth Rock weakness, but better speed, HP and sp. atk than Butterfree. Very poor defences though, but then again same with Butterfree. Can't see much in its movepool that sets it apart, with the exception of Draining Kiss. Hurricane is really useless without rain.
It has the misfortune of being introduced in Gen VI though, since Powder moves won't affect Grass types.
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Probably the best Bug/Flying that you get early on in the game. Nice to have a very accurate Hurricane. Yeah, shame about the Grass buff, should reduce the usefulness of all those guys. NU and PU level NU at that.
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Vivillion's one of the best bugs so far. It's got decent speed and special attack, and can learn Hurricane, especially great with Compoundeyes, Draining Kiss, and Quiver Dance, plus maybe Bug Buzz or a Powder move. Altogether, it's decent, but it's a shame with that low defense. Plus, it IS Pokemon 666.
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Lacking in movepool, not the greatest typing, not that great of stats. All the makings of an unimportant NU Pokemon.
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And Moxie is balls because it has pitiful attack.
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Yea i see this thing being a Specs set most of the time. Its pretty speedy and decent special attack
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0 votes
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It's hard to tell the placement of Fairy types. Thanks to how new of a type they are, we have no real idea how much they will effect the metagame. Interesting is that Dragon immunity is far less useful in the lower tiers, reducing the effectiveness of the Fairy in lower tiers. Immunity to Flygon isn't going to revolutionize the UU tier. Florges as a Pokemon is solid, however I believe it is outclassed by Sylveon. It will do better as an offensive Fairy, but I believe it is best as a support Fairy thanks to Wish and Aromatherapy. And since Sylveon is also more of a support Pokemon, that's more of the thing I base my thoughts on.

I'm going to guess UU. This is fairly uncertain, as the metagame is still new.
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Keeping in mind that pure-Fairy types have resistance to Dragon, Dark, Fighting, and Bug-type moves and are only weak to Poison and Steel attacks, Fairy-type Pokémon have essentially become the new Dragon-type (meaning that it's useful for negating many attacks to normal-damage instead of super effectiveness). That being said, the pre-Gen6 pure-Dragon types couldn't depend on their types to make them powerful units, so their focus was primarily on their stats even more than their moveset.
The same can be said about the pure-Fairy Florges. If a Florges's IVs are short of spectacular, then the Pokémon is generally not one to use at all. In spite of the mentionable Sp. Def and Sp. Atk base stats, the best movesets will ignore any STAB unless the trainer manages to equip one with Moonblast or TM99 Dazzling Gleam. In short, the Pokémon is only really good for specialized, planned situations, and is likely to only fit in the UU tier.
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Considering this is generally Showdown talk, it won't need TMs or IV breeding.
Pretty easy to get those Fairy attacks ingame anyways.
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RU Now due to Sylveon
Florges has solidified itself as one of the best Fairy-types and defensive staples in the tier by virtue of its immense special bulk, allowing it to check threats such as Mega Blastoise, Noivern, and Mega Sceptile. Florges's access to Synthesis gives it instant recovery to consistently pivot into these threats, but you should be wary of the limited amount of PP Synthesis has. Florges's viability is further increased by its status as one of the few viable Wish users in the tier, as well as fulfilling the role of a cleric, which only Diancie gives it competition for. Florges also possesses a decent offensive presence with its above-average Special Attack in conjunction with a powerful STAB move in Moonblast. Unfortunately, very mediocre physical bulk means Florges struggles to directly switch into strong threats like Choice Band Bewear and Guts Machamp.
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Looks like a Grass version of Bouffalant, to be honest. Sap Sipper and Grass Pelt aren't hugely useful for it, comepetitevly, and it's only viable non-grass or ground moves that I can see are Wild Charge and Rock Slide.
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It has decent bulk and a good attack, with prediction it can get an attack boost from Sap Sipper. I think it'll do alright in RU which has Tangrowth to switch in on, and Feraligatr and Qwilfish (maybe idk) to hit. If it can't manage RU, then down to NU.
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Its Untiered unfortunately
Florges has solidified itself as one of the best Fairy-types and defensive staples in the tier by virtue of its immense special bulk, allowing it to check threats such as Mega Blastoise, Noivern, and Mega Sceptile. Florges's access to Synthesis gives it instant recovery to consistently pivot into these threats, but you should be wary of the limited amount of PP Synthesis has. Florges's viability is further increased by its status as one of the few viable Wish users in the tier, as well as fulfilling the role of a cleric, which only Diancie gives it competition for. Florges also possesses a decent offensive presence with its above-average Special Attack in conjunction with a powerful STAB move in Moonblast. Unfortunately, very mediocre physical bulk means Florges struggles to directly switch into strong threats like Choice Band Bewear and Guts Machamp.
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This is a speculation q from 2013. Why are we still bumping this?
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I think RU. It is simply outclassed in OU and UU, by Conkeldurr and Scrafty as a bulky Fighting type, respectively. And I don't even think it could handle the OU environment it the first place, due to its only decent bulk.
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It's probably going to be NU. Its ability is nice, and helps to make up for its bad stats somewhat, but only works against physical attacks. It doesn't really have many good moves, either. Sucker Punch is there for priority, but its other options are pretty limited. I think it will simply be outclassed in the higher tiers, as there are both better walls and better physical attackers.
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Meowstic (Male and Female)
http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/meowstic

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Male Prankster Meowstic will be a really good dual screener. Beyond that though, I don't think it has any other niche. It can't really wall due to not having a recovery move and low defences. Setting up some screens and Toxic will be its main role.
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NU probably. As fondant said, it doesn't do much besides Screen, which Klefki does a lot better.
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0 votes

Doublade (Eviolite user)
http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/doublade

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UU. He will most likely go here, and stay here. His ridiculous defense and attack stats for a 2nd evolution pokemon are amazing, but everything else is lacking. Plus, No Guard ensures that Fire Blast will burn him is a second. His lacking speed stat can be made up for on a good TR team though for in TR he would be a beast. Other than that, he could always use a Sub then SD and spam Shadow Sneak and Sacred Sword.  Now there is the slight possibility he could make it as a defensive Chansey, but his HP is lacking so that is out of question. Other than that, he is a useful asset, but altogether too frail to make a decent wall and too slow to make a good sweeper (unless in TR).
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Correction: NU
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It has a mediocre special defense after boosted by Eviolite, but its titanic defense stat that is literally higher than shield form aegislash coupled with a solid attack land Doublade in UU
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Almost certain it's gonna be OU. Both the defensive and offensive sets look like OU material. King's Shield? That's gonna be extremely useful, and physical attackers will have to be careful around it. It's offensive set great too, It can SD and/or Autotomize in Shield Form, then sweep with it's stellar coverage in Iron Head, Shadow Sneak, and Sacred Sword.
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It was actually ubers for gen 6-7. Now it is OU in generation 8
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0 votes
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NU. And PU NU with it. It just has no real use.
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Correction: RU
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Uber and OU.
Gen 7 (Uber)
A Steel / Ghost typing makes Aegislash an excellent Xerneas and Mega Lucario check, and it cannot get trapped by Mega Gengar, Gothitelle, and Dugtrio.
It can also check other powerful attackers like Deoxys-A, Tapu Lele, and non-Fire Blast Mewtwo.
Aegislash isn't 2HKOed by any of Xerneas's coverage moves due to its good bulk, setting it apart from other Steel-type Xerneas answers.
King's Shield allows Aegislash to punish physical attackers and play mind games with the opponent.
It can punish its switch-ins like Primal Groudon, Yveltal, and Ho-Oh with Toxic.
Aegislash also has decent damage output due to Blade forme's good attacking stats.
However, many powerful and prominent physical attackers overwhelm Aegislash, including Primal Groudon, Marshadow, offensive Necrozma-DM, Arceus-Ground, physical Primal Kyogre, and physical Ultra Necrozma. The prevalence of these threats cuts into Aegislash's viability.
It is also threatened by Dark-types like Yveltal, Arceus-Dark, and Darkrai.
Having no reliable recovery outside of a possible Leftovers means that Aegislash can be worn down over the course of the match. Iron Ball is also the preferred item due to heavily increasing Gyro Ball's damage.
Transforming into Blade forme and attacking at a bad time makes Aegislash open and vulnerable to attacks or setup. This causes it to have to switch or use King's Shield, which forfeits all momentum and gives the advantage to the opponent.
Aegislash can be passive at times and become predictable with repeated use of King's Shield.
Aegislash faces extreme competition from many other Steel-type Xerneas checks like Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Necrozma-DM, and Magearna; the former four have better recovery options, and the latter two have more damage output.
Gen 8 (OU)
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Fairy typing doesn't really excuse horrible stats. I expect it to be fairly forgotten in the NU tier, where immunity to Dragon means pretty much nothing.
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Correction: RU
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0 votes
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NU. x4 Bug weakness really hurts, and very mediocre stats. Contrary Superpower is the only thing that it has going for it, but with Butterfree, Vespiquen, Leavanny and Dustox in the tier, it probably won't get to use Superpower without Trick Room. RU is even worse with the Durant, Escavalier, Crustle and Scyther.
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A bulky set with Tospy-Turvy could be nice to end sweeps, but otherwise it's just a better version of Spinda.
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I was thinking exactly of Spinda. It even has a similar typing to it, in that it has no resists and one immunity. It does have two weaknesses though, one of which is a x4. I think it will be NU, and an inconsequential NU at that.
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0 votes
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NU maybe RU.
I'd wish for higher because I see some cool potential sets but his typing is mass murder to any kind of use. I plan on throwing one on a t-room team eventually.
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Basically a physical omastar in my opinion. I'd agree, nu or ru, with the occasional uu appearance.
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Omastar has that problem of being outsped by Scarfed Manectric and Scarf Rotom. This guy has no such concerns. It's easily the most dangerous Shell Smasher outside of Cloyster. I expect it to be a fairly common sight on RU teams, or at least a Pokemon that people will make sure to often consider for their teams. The only problem is that a Scarf Heliolisk will still outspeed it.

RU.
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0 votes
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I really thought this guy was going to shine thanks to that typing, being the only dragon that can hit fairies with a STAB super-effective hit(may be wrong about this but i doubt it), but after seeing its stats im quite disappointed.  Great special bulk and decent special attack hes okay in that aspect, but that low speed really destroys this thing as any physical super-effective hit will no doubt either knock it out or bring it to low HP where its not even useful anymore. Also Poison Tough being its best ability doesnt really benefit it since it has mediocre attack. I see this thing being rarely used in the NU tier, another PU pokemon IMO.
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Just to add about Dragons hitting supper-effective moves on Fairies, Dialga's Flash Cannon is going to own Xerneas and other Fairies.
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Oh yea Dialga, the one other dragon.
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Idk i can see potential with trick room but other than that it will probably be NU
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I think you guys are seriously underestimating how powerful this thing is. It OHKOs or 2HKOs the most common walls in the NU tier, and it OHKOs everything else. It's very easy for this thing to switch in on stuff thanks to really nice defenses and incredible resists. Once in, it will put the foe in a tough situation, as not many Pokemon can eat a Draco Meteor, so switching out would be difficult. My use of it has been more favorable than my use of Goodra, so I'm honestly quite surprised to see this thing relegated to PU when that thing is praised to hell and back.

I'd say RU with it, only for lack of recovery. There I think it will find a place on many teams, as it has a plethora of resists, and it hits incredibly hard. The Steel types of the tier can't handle a Scald very well. And Sludge Bomb should handle the Fairies quite nicely.
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too good for xy RU. Adaptability boosted Dragon Pulses and Sludge Bombs tear through every non resist, and it has Focus Blast for steel types who resist Dragon attacks and are immune to sludge bomb. So RUBL
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